Steering damper help

[Ride-or-die]

so i dont really know much about them at all, i was wondering if someone wants to shed some light on the situation.

i gather they are designed to keep your steering more true when on uneaven roads/surfaces and to prevent the motion of tank slapping. but thats bout all i know but its been reccomended i get one for the gsxr.

help please lol

[Lateshift]

Pretty much what you have been told there J ;)

It damps the movement of the steering et voila, there is a technical side of life to it, but all you really need to know is that it acts on movement and slows it down depending on how firm you have it set that is.

depends on how much you want to spend, Sprint, Ohlins, there is a big list of people that manufacturer them, but if its adjustable then you have the option to set it to how you want it.

there is one on fleabay at the moment that bolts to the top yoke nut and also the frame, its pretty much the same as the one i have (fitting wise) ;)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Suzuki-GSXR-SRAD-Sprint-Steering-Damper_W0QQitemZ330022866766QQihZ014QQcategoryZ105 34QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I think the other type the GSXR's can use is the one that bolts to the side of the frame and one of the fork legs too ;)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/STEERING-DAMPER-SIDE-MOUNT-FOR-VFR-CBR-GSXR-FZR_W0QQitemZ110026977007QQihZ001QQcategoryZ10460Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The top mounted one is easier to adjust whilst you are moving though :)

[Tark]

Steerin gdampers are only to disguise bad suspension set-up. I have on eon the race bike but its on the lowest damping possible. The more damping the harder it is to turn the bike round slow corners and flick from left to right. If you are struggling to keep the front end from shaking and getting tank slappers then you might benefit from getting one. If I find my front is getting light whilst I am racing I cant do anything about the suspension setup but I can just add a few clicks on the steering damper to try and dial it out.

[Lateshift]

I disagree that they are only there to disguise it Mark, most GP bikes have them, to say that its only there for bad suspension settings is probably a bit of a slur on the suspension technicians in all fairness, i reckon its there to minimise the effects of minor suspension shortcomings ;)

I do totally agree however for the street bike rider (and very probably the amateur racer) that they do mask a bad suspension setup and also bad throttle control.

As soon as you get on the power hard the front wheel will go light, with a good suspension setup or not, that means that each time the wheel skips across the ground it will try to move off line, each time it moves off line and touches down it will try due to the gyroscopic effect to flick back to the centre line it should be on, unfortunately it can sometimes be exaggerated and go beyond centre to the opposite side, again it will try to re-centre but this time exaggerate again, this is where the tankslapper starts, each time the wheel tries to flick back into centre it accelerates and goes further,

A damper will damp that effect so its manageable.

The damper on my bike is now set mid way, i agree that if set to firm then low speed corners (and filtering on street bikes) becomes a problem, too soft and the damper is wasted.

On a soft settings, my bike will shake its head every time in 3rd gear when i whack the power on, more noticeable when coming out of a bend, with the damper set how it is, its hardly noticeable, but its definitely not hiding a problem with the suspension, its hiding a problem between throttle control and bad rider positioning (i am always late to lean over the tank when getting the throttle on :D ).

Bad suspension settings or not, you are going to encounter bumps on UK roads, each bump causes external steering input to the bike, the only friction on the steering to stop that is the headstock bearings and your hands, a damper helps you ;)

[Ride-or-die]

so bascially a good idea but have a look at my suspension set up too? what might be wong with the suspension?

[Tark]

Probably nothin gwrong with your suspension. Like Lateshift said... There is not much you can do to suspension settings to get rid of slappers and a damper does help. I guess I should have thought a little more before my reply as I admit I was worng. A good set up bike may still need a steering damper in circumstances where there are bumps or when the front wheel leaves the floor. I just dont like them. I raced an 1998 R1 for 2 hours in an endurance race without one and just taught me how to ride smoother and faster corner speed.

[Lateshift]

To be truthful this takes us right back to the old days of bikes, where suspension was a spring and damper and that was it, tyres were tyres and you just got on with the bike and learnt to live with its quirks.

Technically speaking a damper wont improve the handling of a bike, it will help you in keeping control of it.

It does as mentioned hide weak spots in the rider (poor throttle control, poor rider position in transition phases) and it will help a poorly setup bike as far as steering goes.

But people get on fine without them, the difference is on smaller less powerful bikes its less likely to bite you hard, than on a more powerful bike where throttle and steering are more aggressive :)

I never needed one on the 99 RSV, it handled really well even under hard acceleration, the ZX9R was a death trap without one, the new RSV i have needed it when getting into a tank slapper on a dual carriageway and the GSXR has one (but that was setup for the track already and i can only assume it needs it :D ).

Horses for courses really, if you have a bike that seems prone to some headshake, then the first place to look would be the steering and then the throttle control, after that its time for a damper :)

[Tark]

I was just playing with mine (damper that is) and when it is set on full damping I can hardly move the bars! You woul dnever get round a corner with it set on full! Its like locking the sbars into a set position!

[two]

There is not much you can do to suspension settings to get rid of slappers and a damper does help.

i'd dis-agreed... a and b would be the prime adjustments to prevent slaps :

a, lower the rear ride height
b, increasing front preload

both of the above suspension changes will reduce head shake
both slacken the head angle and move weight of the front of the bike

the following would make slaps more likely :
(so it goes without saying adjustment the opposite way would decrease the chance of a slap)

c, too much rear preload

bike generally unstable and more likely to slap

d, too much front compression damping

will cause instability, a rough ride, and it will reduce the grip available at the front.and increase the chance of the bike slapping

e, too little front rebound damping

decrease front wheel stabiliity

f, rear rebound

too much will cause the front end to shake and overwork the rear tyre

a damper would mask the above badly setup componets :)

although each adjust has other effects...a, lower the rear ride height also slows steering effects and put put weight over the rear which make a difference to weight disturbution which is effected by throttle control..etc...

what might be wong with the suspension?

you tell us...? you ride it ;)

have you set your sag first..? and looked up some base damping setting for your weight...?
whats your throttle control like..? (afterall, suspension is design to work at particular weight disturbutions (front/rear) relating to contact patch areas)

once your done the above ride a road you know well (that way you can spend your time thinking about what you can feel the bike doing)
once you know what the bike is doing, you can identify the changes you think you should make
suspension is an indiviual thing, what works for me, mostly likely won't work for you... weight, style, throttle control, how you personal like the bike to feel under you...

Unfortunately as you can see in the example above rear shock adjustments also affects the behaviour of the front( in some circumstances)
So there is often no easy answer to a particular handling problem. The most important thing to remember is never change more than one thing at a time Always test the bike after any change in the setup to see what affect it has. And make sure you note down your original settings, so if it all goes haywire you can start again from scratch.

i wouldn't buy a steering damper until you've had your suspension setup by a pro, the final setup with be dependent on your feedback from test rides and the suspension techs understanding of what you are trying to describe so practise thinking about what is going on

[Tark]

"'d dis-agreed... a and b would be the prime adjustments to prevent slaps :

a, lower the rear ride height
b, increasing front preload "

This can be done but for me that would alter the bikes handling in a negative way elsewhere and as I dont get tank slappers that much I would prefere the aid of a Damper than to sacrifice my settup for other parts of the track. Increasing the front preload would alter the sag and the travel and lowering the rear ride hight would make the bike chang direction slower.

[two]

"'d dis-agreed... a and b would be the prime adjustments to prevent slaps :

a, lower the rear ride height
b, increasing front preload "

This can be done but for me that would alter the bikes handling in a negative way elsewhere and as I dont get tank slappers that much I would prefere the aid of a Damper than to sacrifice my settup for other parts of the track. Increasing the front preload would alter the sag and the travel and lowering the rear ride hight would make the bike chang direction slower.

i think the point i'm trying to making is you need your suspension setup correctly for how and where you ride before going out and fitting a damper...

tark, for where you ride and the style of riding the suspension setup you are running requires a damper

track and road demand different suspension setups.... on track you are running the suspension with more preload, making the suspension firmer, with greater damping rates, you've got your yokes dropped down the forks and/ or the rear raised
does this sound like a setup that is more or less likely to slap..?
if these setting were used on the road would the bike be a slap happy monster..? maybe... maybe not...?

on track you don't have the bumps of the british b roads so you can run the track type settings, as you know rate of turn is all important on track and a steeper head angle make the bike easier to turn in and change direction but also makes the bike more likely to slap..... so yes for track, with track suspension fitting a damper is a very good idea

but on the road... on a 600...? is it really needed or is it just a piece of bling..?

there's probbably 16 adjustments you can make on a modern sport bike to change suspension setup....after changing a and b that leaves 14 other adjustments that can be used to get the bike handling (not forgetting tyre pressures)

but lets think about lateshifts definition of a slapper, the front wheel skipping... with better suspension setup would the front tyre track the road surface better and be less likely to skip..?

i'm just wanting to debate suspension setup to get a better understanding in my head and hopefully get others thinking about

a damper is still on my list of things fit when funds allow because it does offer a certain piece of mind on the road

[Ride-or-die]

yeah im liking where this is heading to be honest although i didnt intend it, i havent got a clue about my suspension, nor how to adjust it in anyway, as far as im concerned its set up the same as how it left the factory, maybe this is where i should be looking

[Tark]

And after all this talk guess what packed up on the race bike today! Had some bad moments over the crest of the hill and out of druids in practise so I decided to upp the steering damper....

Turns out its pooped and the damping is crap and doesn't change from all the way in to all the way out now!

[two]

tark, unlucky mate...what you do thinks up with the damper...?


ok while we're now talking about suspension setup we might as well continue

how to setup your suspension....
(basic guide created from different sources on the interweb, so credit to them)

firstly check your suspension and tyres are in good working order...
fork seals ok, suspension linkages moving freely, change old fork oil, change squared off tires, check the head bering not ok too, CHECK TYRE PRESSURES

SAG
so the bike in tip top condition, first lets go about setting static sag for the front forks (your'll need two helper for this)

extend the front suspension completely. (rock the bike on its side stand so the front wheel is in the air
Measure from the seal wiper to the lower triple clamp (conventional fork, USD fork you'd measure to the axle clamp),
Call this number L1.
Sit on your bike in a normal riding position and bike gear, (your'll need a helper to steady the bike)
Another helper should push down on the forks, let it extend slowly and then re-measure as before.
This number is L2.
Now extended the fork by hand, and let it settle slowly, and re-measured. This number is L3. (L3 is where your suspension would settle if there were no friction in the system, half way between L1 and L2)
now for the maths
sag=L1-(L3+L2)/2

if your being lazy you could miss out the L3 bit. (but this accounts for stiction in the forks).. in which case we'd simply have: sag=L1-L2

now do the same for the rear but measuring from the axle to a point directly above on the frame for each of the numbers. (pick a spot that is directly above the axle and is easy to identify, marking it with a bit of tape or sticky dot makes it easier)

now you have a sag figure for the front and rear :)

for the road your looking for the following figures
front sag between 30mm and 35mm
rear sag between 25mm and 30mm

(ideal sag is 30-35% of the maxium travel for street riding, unfortunatly if you want to know the maxium sag your'll have to strip stuff down)

add and remove preload to the fork/rear shock until your sag figures are in the ranges shown above

now thats done its worth checking the rear spring rate is right.. to do this we measure rear 'free' sag' get of the bike and lift the rear, you should be able to lift the rear end just slightly and top out the suspension.
If your bike is topped out at rest, you need a stiffer spring, as you'll have too much preload dialed in to achieve the correct sag. Alternately, if your bike has a lot of free sag (you can lift the rear lots before it tops out), you may need a softer spring. (there are exceptions to this)

thats the sag sorted :)

REBOUND DAMPING
with the bike at rest and off its stand, firmly push on the triple clamp (don't hold on the brake or push the handlebar) or seat. When you let go, the suspension should return quickly to its original position, but not beyond.
If the fork or shock over-extends past its free sag, and then compresses again, more rebound damping is required.
If it takes more than approximately one second for the suspension to return to it free standing position, less rebound damping is needed.

As roads are bumpy, less rebound is more, better to have a slightly softer setup for the unknown roads and then maybe dial in a little extra rebound for the roads where you know the surface is good.

Compression Damping
Start with the compression adjusters in the middle of their adjustment range, and take your bike for a blast. How did it feel...?
Now add some a click of compression to the front and repeat the test ride.
Did it feel better or worse...?
Now add a click of compression to the rear. And go for a test ride.
Now go back to the middle of the adjustment for compression front and rear.
Now remove a click of compression from the front. And go for a ride.
Now remove a click of compression from the rear. And another test ride.

Continue experimenting, making adjustments accordingly. (and making notes as you go along)
As with rebound damping, it's always best to be on the light side with compression.

BALANCED..?
with your bike off its stands, place your hands near the rear of the tank, and push down.
A well-balanced setup will have both ends of your bike compressing and returning at approximately the same rate. If the front compresses or rebounds different than the rear, attempt to match them by making fine adjustments bearing in mind the above.

Settings from the Web
unless someone is the same weight as you and your suspension is in the same condition, no-ones settings are going to be the same as yours

damping curves and spring rates
valving, shiming, progressive vs straight rate springs, air gaps, oil types
thats beyond this guide

finailly
• Always make small adjustments, more is not always better.
• Always keep notes of what you have done.
• Suspension tuning is an art - be patient

TROUBLESHOOTING
heres basic symptoms of suspension damping problems that you might find affecting your bike, yours maybe more subtle.
depending how the bike feels to you, you may need to find an acceptable compromise setting

LACK OF REBOUND DAMPING (FORK)
* The fork offers a supremely plush ride, especially when riding straight up. When the pace picks up, however, the feeling of control is lost. The fork feels mushy, and traction "feel" is poor
* After hitting bumps at speed, the front tire tends to chatter or bounce.
* When flicking the bike into a corner at speed, the front tire begins to chatter and lose traction. This translates into an unstable feel at the clip-ons.
* As speed increases and steering inputs become more aggressive, a lack of control begins to appear. Chassis attitude and pitch become a real problem, with the front end refusing to stabilize after the bike is countersteered hard into a turn.

TOO MUCH REBOUND DAMPING (FORK)

* The ride is quite harsh--just the opposite of the plush feel of too little rebound. Rough pavement makes the fork feel as if it's locking up with stiction and harshness.
* Under hard acceleration exiting bumpy corners, the front end feels like it wants to "wiggle" or "tankslap." The tire feels as if it isn't staying in contact with the pavement when on the gas.
* The harsh, unforgiving ride makes the bike hard to control when riding through dips and rolling bumps at speed. The suspension's reluctance to maintain tire traction through these sections erodes rider confidence.

LACK OF COMPRESSION DAMPING (FORK)

* Front end dive while on the brakes becomes excessive.
* The rear end of the motorcycle wants to "come around" when using the front brakes aggressively.
* The front suspension "bottoms out" with a solid hit under heavy braking and after hitting bumps.
* The front end has a mushy and semi-vague feeling--similar to lack of rebound damping.

TOO MUCH COMPRESSION DAMPING (FORK)

* The ride is overly harsh, especially at the point when bumps and ripples are contacted by the front wheel.
* Bumps and ripples are felt directly; the initial "hit" is routed through the chassis instantly, with big bumps bouncing the tire off the pavement.
* The bike's ride height is effected negatively--the front end winds up riding too high in the corners.
* Brake dive is reduced drastically, though the chassis is upset significantly by bumps encountered during braking.

LACK OF REBOUND DAMPING (REAR SHOCK)

* The ride is plush at cruising speeds, but as the pace increases, the chassis begins to wallow and weave through bumpy corners.
* This causes poor traction over bumps under hard acceleration; the rear tire starts to chatter due to a lack of wheel control.
* There is excessive chassis pitch through large bumps and dips at speed and the rear end rebounds too quickly, upsetting the chassis with a pogo-stick action.

TOO MUCH REBOUND DAMPING (REAR SHOCK)

* This creates an uneven ride. The rear suspension compliance is poor and the "feel" is vague.
* Traction is poor over bumps during hard acceleration (due to lack of suspension compliance).
* The bike wants to run wide in corners since the rear end is "packing down"; this forces a nose-high chassis attitude, which slows down steering.
* The rear end wants to hop and skip when the throttle is chopped during aggressive corner entries.

LACK OF COMPRESSION DAMPING (REAR SHOCK)

* There is too much rear end "squat" under acceleration; the bike wants to steer wide exiting corners (since the chassis is riding rear low/nose high).
* Hitting bumps at speed causes the rear to bottom out, which upsets the chassis.
* The chassis attitude is affected too much by large dips and G-outs.
* Steering and control become difficult due to excessive suspension movement.

TOO MUCH COMPRESSION DAMPING (REAR SHOCK)

* The ride is harsh, though not quite as bad as too much rebound; the faster you go, the worse it gets, however.
* Harshness hurts rear tire traction over bumps, especially during deceleration. There's little rear end "squat" under acceleration.
* Medium to large bumps are felt directly through the chassis; when hit at speed, the rear end kicks up.

heres a link to another guide
http://www.gpsuspension.com/services/tuningfaq.php

oh and before you adjust anything, work out what settings you have at the moment... if all else fails you can go back to what your used to

[two]

Ride-or-die, maybe a few of us can get together and all have a fiddle..? (with our settings)

[stu600cc]

is that what they're calling it nowadays :laugh1

[Tark]

Think the Damping has gone.....

Not to worry though seeing as I crashed anyway and it was the last race of the season! I have a spare off my other bike to pu ton it for when I get ready to sell up.