600 series privateering

[DoGbOt]

Anyone know where i can do 600cc racing?

On the cheap if possible

[DoodleBug]

Before that gets answered, why 600cc?

[DoGbOt]

cos i have a srad 600 with all the spare fairings but.....

the amount ive spent on the bike i wont get back thru selling it.

so i will race it.

mainly cos i want to get off the road as it just seems to be gettin worse with more twats on the road!

[RaceMeNSee]

Track days?! you should talk with Stu600!

[DoGbOt]

not so keen on the track days in the long run would rather do some racing, see some real action!! but i will be doing trackdays to gain a lot of experience, but a friend an i would really like to privateer!

Plus we have a 97 blade & a 99 srad 600 to play with as we both will not earn back the cash we've stowed in them!

[DoodleBug]

http://www.essexbikers.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=8272

Have A GOOD read. Visit all the club racing sites and take it from there.

[DoGbOt]

Cheers Doodle much appreciated:clap

[Lateshift]

not so keen on the track days in the long run would rather do some racing, see some real action!!

Firstly privateering isnt really a term you use to describe Rookie 600 club racing ;)

Privateering is what you do when you self fund in the higher classes ;)

(technically speaking all club level racers are privateers because 99% of them own their own team name and self fund to a degree, but true privateering is going into the big leagues and having to foot the bill for the most part or with the aid of some sponsorship).

Also dont take this the wrong way, unless you are a talented rider, a 600SRAD isnt going to give you a chance to see any action, its rare these days to find that type of bike in the Rookie racing as most Rookie 600's (certainly in BMCRC and New Era) are shoving out over 120 bhp at the rear wheel, its even rarer to find anything but fuel injected bikes in that class too ;)

To be thinking of this half way through the current season says to me that you have left it a little late (not in terms of being able to get anything sorted), you really need to get along to a race meet where the prospective class you want to run in is racing, get yourself in the paddock and ask questions (especially about the bikes and how much it costs to keep you at the back of the grid before daring to ask how much it costs to run at the front :D ), then look at the lap times (most people seem to think that they are comparable to trackday times and its complete tosh).

There are cheaper ways to race though as has been demonstrated already by Harriebird and you shouldnt automatically dismiss the idea of looking at a different class ;)

[DoGbOt]

Latey, thankyou very much for your reply its very helpful, i couldnt think of the correct terminology last night but i knew people would get the gist of what i was on about.....

Please under no certain terms think i will be trying to start up this season... my friend & i have been toying with the idea since the begining of the season when we were involved with some paddock work on the supersport series (the ones that run with the bsb weekends)

i know that its probably not the best move slapping a track fairing on my bike & shoving it on the track although, it appears logical i understand the need & importance of moving up thru classes, after all i did the same on the road (50cc - 125 - 400 -600) its just my bike now owes me £4400 an nobody in there right mind is even going to think about making an offer on my sh!!eheap anywhere near that regardless of the work i've done (all be it you cant see it cos its inside, but none the less my srad is running not too shy of the 109bhp put out by most fuel injected models,) but.... i do get your point!!!

My cousin is rekindling some of his old contacts from his racing days, as he says it was different back in the day when he raced alongside barry sheene before it all kicked off & barry went mainstream, so there may be some talk of extra cash or bikes n parts appearing in the future but i need to be up & crawling at least, winning is not the point here, i need to show that i can be consistant with what i have in order to improve,( even if it is at the back lapped by the fast front runners ten times

& as you rightly also say track day times are almost complete tosh, so they wont show consistancy under pressure! trackdays will gain me expeirience on track,

make no mistake im preparing for it all i wont be trying to enter till at the very prematurest time of next season....

But the main thing i want to do is have some fun!!

[Perilous]

Basically what Mick says.:)

To be competetive in 600s it works out just about the most expensive class in the known universe. Expect the brand new 600 you buy, have tuned, refresh three times a season, put three tyres on every race weekend and throw chains and pads at to be totally uncompetetive when its three years old.

However, as you have 600 already you may as well bung some tyres on it and have go.

With the esculating costs racing has deffinitley become the law of diminishing returns. (Heavily reflected in the small or mixed grids with ALL clubs this year). In the last 8 years we've gone from three short races per class a day with cheap entry for an extra class (WCEFAEC), to two long races WCEFAEC, to two short races (WCEFAEC) to 2 short races with an extra class costing nearly as much as the original entry.

Any way the point I'm making is before you start spending loads of money just have a go on the bike you have to make sure you actually want to spend what works out at about a £1000 a weekend (at £12000 for a season not including testing the Triumph 675 class is considered cheap) to get up early stand in a scrutineering queue, do a ten minute practice then hang about all day for two 8 minute races.

If you find you do then welcome to the world of the clinically insane and perpetually skint.:grin2

There are a lot of cheaper classes than 600s. Even powerbikes works out cheaper but if you don't mind predominantly racing further from home there are clubs than run less expensive 600 classes (AKA slower) or preinjection classes (e'g with Derby Pheonix) or Steel frame 600 classes and so on.

There are lots of people having a good laugh racing at the tail end of rookie 600s or clubman 600s relatively inexpensively. (In racing terms)


However if you get hooked an seriously want to pursue 600s proper then expect to be spending very serious money.

My team mate spent £5000 last season just on the engine alone on his 600 and he was still being creamed down the straights. £20,000 a season isn't out the way at all for racing at the pointy end of 600s.

Again the R6 cup at a £25000 fixed fee was considered good value but the real end cost for one of the front runners (not gonna name him on a public forum) last year was £40000 and that's a 600 class with no tuning or wets etc allowed.

600s has broke more riders than any other class.

As I say time and time again though when these questions come up on forums. The best way to find out about racing is to get off yer bum and go to some race meets and talk to people.:)

[DoGbOt]

Perilous A Fantastic reply there well over the last 24 hours i have read so much & heard so much good advice from this site & others i've been directed to & then talking to some old racing dogs i knew that were racing before i was even a twinkle in my dads eye, i just cannot decide what im doing......... Lmao im soooooo confused at the moment, i think as tommorrow is sunday i shall go for a ride, & think very long & hard about my choices ( riding is where i seem to do all my logical thinking)

But once again to Everybody! Thankyou all so much for your input i have plenty to mull over :reading!!

TTFN!!

[MICKTLS]

take your time to decide and get some track time in by doing track days and css it will help in the long run ......

[DoGbOt]

I think your absolutley right mick!!

I'm just 1part brave 3 parts fool, brought up being fed racer stories as a kid......

Doh...........................

[Perilous]

then talking to some old racing dogs i knew that were racing before i was even a twinkle in my dads eye


Club racing has changed considerably since you were a twinkle in your dads eyes.:grin2

One old timer I know well when asked to sum up racing in short said, It's like sitting inside a tumble dryer tearing up £20 notes as you go round." :grin2

Although its always been expensive, the biggest thing from a racing point of view now as I said in my previous post is the cost per lap in relation to the 80s.
With the prevailance of the 'no win , no fee' culture we now live in it isn't going to improve. Oddly enough though bought on by the spectators and trackday riders more than racers themselves.
Such as the person who tried to sue a track day organiser at Oulton Park because they didn't state grass wasn't as grippy as tarmac or the rider who's wife tried to sue Brands becuase no one told her husband riding a 1000 cc bike round the gp circuit was dangerous.:rolleyes:

The health and safety hassle and constant litigation threats were one of the main reasons our club's driving force for the last few years (brought it back from broke to the biggest ameteur club in the country) packed in.

On the plus side with all the help and advice available as well as the fact you actually get training before you start there hasn't been an easier time to get into racing.

Anyway I always come on here doing the profit of doom but the point I'm making is that you are going to be spending lots of money for very little time on track so make sure you really want to do it before you start throwing much money at it.
As I said you can dip your toes in the water with the bike you have but if you like it I'd consider some of the cheaper classes before you pursue the 600 route too strongly.
Despite all the "I only do it for fun. I don't care where I come" speaches you hear or read, its racing and most people want to beat the bike in front and unless you're the type who just wants to hang on in slow class so you can lie about your pots in later life (we have some issues with that going on in our own club at the moment) that's the point where it becomes a bottomless pit.

Then of course there's the cost of when (not if) you crash. 400s crash well and are relatively cheap to repair but none the less the cost of that minor off on the video I posted, even with all the ACU discounts stands at £680 (Crash helmet, gloves, end can,*leather repairs, brembo lever, screen, throttle tube,) excluding the rearsets I bought so I still had a spare set or the wrecked top fairing and seat unit. A 600 crash will eat £1500 just like that without any clothing costs. Also the running time of a tuned R6 on its side before it picks up on the main bearings is around three seconds. Not good if you run a fast tickover and it doesn't stop. By contrast my 400 ran upside down with no ill effects at Brangd Gp, although I did break its fall.:grin2

There are cheap classes such as the Desmo Due class a few on here are doing (provided you don't mind racing with New Era) wich are good entry level classes but at your age I'l almost garuntee you after a while you'll want to move on and back to expenses again.

Once any class becomes competetive it gets very expensive.

Trouty will say TZRs are a good cheap starting class ans up until now I'd have agreed. However, with the level of compettion now in the class, despite the fact they aren't allowed to use wet tyres the front running TZRs are carrying three sets of dry tryes for different conditons, running PFM brakes etc etc. Mind for the pound to fun ratio on and off circuit its still just about the best class there is:).

So in short if you're competetive natured at all and aren't gonna just be someone who races because it sounds good down the pub whether you earn £100, 000 a year or £10,000 it will absorb all your money, so don't come on here in two year time whinging because you can't afford a road bike and you're single becuase you girlfriend couldn't comprehend why a pair of tyres was more important than the two week holiday in the sun you had booked.:grin2:grin2:grin2:grin2

On the plus side despite the fact I've broken more bones than you can shake a stick at if I had been born with hindsight I'd do it all again. Of all the sports I've done nothing compares. In fact I'd go through it all again just for the 2005 SS400 season. With 12 different race winners and a full grid (with reserves) of loons:grin2 it was deffinitely SS400s finest year.

For every high in racing there are three lows but the highs are fantastic and I've never done anything else that brings on so many different mixtures of emotions in such a short space of time.

It's impossible to explain the buzz of coming from 13th on the grid to first by the exit of the firt corner of Brands or how bloody infuriating it is to leave Lydden 17 hundreths of a second off finally breaking into a 43 second lap. Aaaaaaghh.:grin2

And if you're a motorcycle enthusiast nothing, just nothing compares to seeing your name ingraved on a pot alongside the likes Barry Sheene and John Surtees albeit only the Sportsman of the year pot and not a championship trophy.:)

*Mark might repair that but I doubt it.

[DoGbOt]

:clap top class reply! :clap

lots to think about still but its fantastic to hear from those who have been there!!

Cheers guys!

[harriebird]

Any way the point I'm making is before you start spending loads of money just have a go on the bike you have to make sure you actually want to spend what works out at about a £1000 a weekend (at £12000 for a season not including testing the Triumph 675 class is considered cheap) to get up early stand in a scrutineering queue, do a ten minute practice then hang about all day for two 8 minute races.

my race season is costing me about £100-200 per weekend including race entries and van diesel and food and beer etc, and even this seems a lot of money to be up early for scrutineering, a practice session and 2 races :grin2

however something must be addictive about it, i nearly jacked it all in after assen, and had to force myself to write my entry for oulton because in my heart of hearts i wanted to give it another go, and i can't bloody wait now :grin2

the hardest bit i've found so far (other than seeing my friends get hurt :() has been some rather long rather lonely drives home, all the rest is more than made up for by a great weekend with my mates and some racing thrown in. and knowing that a close member of my family is immensely proud of me, and all the doctors on his cancer ward are made to look at my picture every time they do his obs! :grin2

[Perilous]

my race season is costing me about £100-200 per weekend including race entries and van diesel and food and beer etc, and even this seems a lot of money to be up early for scrutineering, a practice session and 2 races :grin2



Hence the part in my post about it being a good entry class but most Desmo due riders will either want to move on (you yourself have already muttered about it) or are riders that have already raced other classes and done the spend loads bit already.

At that costing you dont' wear out tyres, brake pads or chains then?

A 600 rider on any sort of pace will be using two rears and possibly a front a weekend. Even mid field SB 400 riders running £290 Dunlop slicks (they last longer than £210 Pirellis) can't get through more than two weekends on a set of tyres.

At current front running pace dependent on circuit you're struggling to get a weekend out of a rear without times droping off. Lydden Practice and two days racing killed three rears although I'll probably get Snetterton testing out of the last rear if I turn it and stay a couple of seconds off the pace.

As i've said time and time again, racing isn't that dear, trying to win is. Most people race to win, thats why its called racing.:grin2

I actually used to give my old tyres to a 400 backmarker until he got to quick for them but Bike Basher sounds very much like he's going to want to be competetive so there's no point telling him to budget on a backmarker's expenditure.


The cheaper a class is the less it will obviously cost to run at the front but with all due respect at the end of the day an up and coming youngster with aspirations towards 600s is not likely to be happy for long running in a class where half the grid barely break the minute round Brands Indy.

What are the riders running at the front of the Desmodue class spending?

[harriebird]

i wasnt suggesting for a minute that DD was appropriate in this case, i was just offering another point of view :) but then it wasnt really designed for that, it was aimed at people who want to make a step on from trackdays and race with their mates without remortgaging their house to do so.

one of the front runners in the 620 DD class has suggested that running costs CAN be largely similar to the back of the 583cc class, but the capital outlay in terms of buying a bike is another £1000-£1500 to get a 620 rather than a 583.

it's not unheard of for people who are running midfield to do a whole season on one or 2 sets of tyres, but admittedly the folks at the front are using a few more. trouty would be able to give a better idea on this. i think i will need a new chain before too long though.

i make no bones about being one of the slowest out there, and i have no aspirations to be at the front, because i know that's not realistic for me. but i have been enjoying racing against others at the back of the grid who are a similar speed to me :grin2

realistically it would be a long while before i'm ready to move onto anything else - although i have definitely improved since the start of the season, a quantum leap in terms of how my head copes with everything will be required before i can really start to push myself to my limits.

[Perilous]

but then it wasnt really designed for that, it was aimed at people who want to make a step on from trackdays and race with their mates without remortgaging their house to do so.



Ha ha tell Domski that.:grin2


No actually I'd say Desmo due would be a good place to start. All I'm saying is that a young bloke with 600 aspirations will almost deffinitley want to move on, just like most youngsters don't want to stay in 400s etc.

If your front runners aren't using up tyres then they're probably not needing to push very hard in the corners. (I've raced against your front runners by the way so I know how quick they are or aren't ;))

make no bones about being one of the slowest out there, and i have no aspirations to be at the front, because i know that's not realistic for me. but i have been enjoying racing against others at the back of the grid who are a similar speed to me :grin2


You must want to beat the bike in front though otherwise you might as well just do a trackday. It is a race after all.:)


Anyway I'm not having a pop at you running at the back. Been there done that and still remember the buzz the first time I didn't get lapped in SS400.

In my first season I used two or three sets of tyres. Now a set barely lasts a weekend. At Snetterton the difference between a rear lasting all weekend and a test day to only lasting two races is litteraly a second off the lap times at a decent pace.

I don't need to argue the point of cost with you, you can look at any forum and see post after post of riders moaning about how expensive it is.

The whole point of my post was to just make Bike Basher realise that if he rode his 600 and wanted to pursue that class it was going to cost shed loads if he wanted to run at the front as most racers do, whether they ever get there or not.

[Lateshift]

The cost is plain to see, you only have to look on Motoforum to see Rookie 600 bikes being sold for over £4000 as a starter package, these bikes in reality have set the rider back at least £10,000 in terms of all the tuning that has been thrown at it, and that is to get around 124bhp at the wheel ;)

Once you start looking at Clubman level and even higher with the Supersport 600, things get pretty serious and engine tunes cost around £5000 upwards just to get the 133bhp at the wheel that the top half of the grid are running, engines tuned that high tend to need 2 refreshes a season and cost in excess of £2000 just to have it all done each time.

But it can be done on a budget without a doubt (its just that the budget for Rookie 600 is inordinately higher to start with :) ).

Look at all the classes, get down to the race meets and dont be afraid to get in amongst the Rookie classes and ask questions about how to go about doing it.

Just bear in mind that by mid season the grid is only half full due to those that thought it was a cheap thrill disappearing, suddenly realising that racing to win is like ****ing in the wind if you havent got a pot to **** in to start with ;)

And if you have a 600cc road bike that you feel you have money tied up in, then you might want to sell it and buy a starter package, chances are you will get more for your money by selling it as a road bike, than trying to make an outdated bike in an extremely powerful class, competitive to start with, at least then with the cash you can widen your options a bit more ;)

[Perilous]

And if you have a 600cc road bike that you feel you have money tied up in, then you might want to sell it and buy a starter package, chances are you will get more for your money by selling it as a road bike, than trying to make an outdated bike in an extremely powerful class, competitive to start with, at least then with the cash you can widen your options a bit more ;)

Extremely good point. It'll be nion impossible to sell as a race bike. The best you'll get is a someone buying it for a cheap road track bike.

[DoGbOt]

Fantastic points there guys, having had a look at those starter packages i can see my motor is definatley better off on the ebay race!!! well il be looking around at other bikes & attending some meets too, thanks for the lowdown!!

[Perilous]

Fantastic points there guys, having had a look at those starter packages i can see my motor is definatley better off on the ebay race!!! well il be looking around at other bikes & attending some meets too, thanks for the lowdown!!

For cheap classes you missed the best club this weekend at Snetterton.

For more competetive classes (queue the abuse from Tark :grin2) Bemsee are at Snetterton 7 & 8 July. I've got to get down from 1.17s to 1.15s to keep with the two front 400 guys there so expect to see a guy in yellow leathers coming by with his legs in the air and a very harassed looking spaner man.:grin2

Turn up at our awning (with the beers;)) after racing and we'll happily bore you to tears about it for ages.

All three 600 classes (rookie, Clubman and SS600) will be there so you'll be able to see how quick the SS600 class is.

[Tark]

No Abuse from me. I have raced with Bemsee, MRO, DP, New Era and others to be honest you see some similar faces at all of them and the front runners are all pretty fast! There isn't many "easy" clubs any more IMO.

[harriebird]

You must want to beat the bike in front though otherwise you might as well just do a trackday. It is a race after all.:)

course i want to beat them, i didnt at the start of the season i just wanted to beat myself really (and i'm not the only one who has gone racing for this reason), but now i've realised i'm not the slowest out there (just the most scared) and i know there are people i can beat, i sure as hell want to get past them!

i just need to find some balls, and sadly no amount of race budget is going to pay for those....:grin2

[Perilous]

course i want to beat them
Yaay the transformation from someone who races to a racer has started.;):D


i just wanted to beat myself really (and i'm not the only one who has gone racing for this reason),

Actually I've always primarily raced against myself.

At Lydden last weekend although I was very distinctly out to win I was much more interested in breaking the 43 second barrier (Failed miserably on both counts:grin2) than the race finishes.

I've always said that (all things being equal) I'll pack up when I stop improving a bit here and there or start slowing down rather than if half a dozen better riders keep finishing in front of me.

As I've said most people want to win but the challenge has always been to keep pushing on and beat quality riders, not how many cheap pots I can cram on a shelf.
:grin2 Mind I've yet to win a race since Snetterton last year (Lord of Lydden doesn't count, hardly any quick 400s do that one) so there's plenty of challenge to be had yet. :grin2:grin2

If that was all it was about just winning, despite my complete lack of interest for either of them, I'd have entered the Rupture in Clubman Minitwins (which after being ill last year I'm elligable for) and cleaned up rather than bring up the rear in DynaPro Mintwins.

[Perilous]

No Abuse from me. I have raced with Bemsee, MRO, DP, New Era and others to be honest you see some similar faces at all of them and the front runners are all pretty fast! There isn't many "easy" clubs any more IMO.

No that's fair enough. At ciruits like Snetterton though (ie one of a budding Essex racer's most likely venues) Shaun was having to run 1.12s in 600 last year just to get 14th so IMHO Bemsee still has the depth of field.
Having said that though Powerbikes and Forza are fairly crap this year with everyone off doing Superstock Cup.

From what we saw of DP when we raced with them at Brands they still seem to be a better option for cheaper racing than Bemsee.

Outside Minitwins (the SV challenge:grin2) to race reatively cheaply you're limited to a two stroke class (Mz or YPM) where as DP seem to cater for older four strokes as well.

Actually quite fancy raking the communial ZX7r out for a pre-injection round or two next year.:)

Mind you 400s is an older fourstroke class too really but with the amount of developement and running costs etc its hardly a cheap starter class. The only advantage it has is it's one of the few tuned four stroke classes where your bike is obsolete when its three years old. (Unless Japan finally bring out the R4 they keep murmuring about:))


At the end of the day though, this year all clubs are struggling to raise full one class grids. Racing has priced itself out a bit at the moment so you never know a few more 'affordable' interesting classes might appear next season but I doubt it.